Racism, the Black Experience, and the Perpetual Fight for Equality (Part 1)

On Monday, May 25th, 2020, George Floyd, a 46-year old African American man was killed while in police custody in Minneapolis, Minnesota in the United States. This was the straw that broke the camel's back and has sparked outrage across the country and in other cities across the world. For centuries, the black community has experienced systemic racism and discrimination, particularly at the hand of whites who have been in a historical position of power still to this day. While black men disproportionately experience negative outcomes when interacting with police, black women are also overrepresented in police violence - they are also mothers, sisters, aunts, partners, and friends of these male victims. In Part 1 of our two-part State of the Union Roundtable Series, Linda Holdbrook, Rose Marcelin, and TeNatalie Golding-Walker join us to share their thoughts on racism, prejudice, discrimination, police brutality, and white privilege.

Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. We would love it if you shared your thoughts with us through direct message on your social media platform of choice or by emailing us at ThePublicHealthInsight@gmail.com.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Sully: Public health is a population-based field of science focused on preventing disease and promoting health. Every week, we will be engaging in interactive discussions and analysis of the latest public health issues affecting you and your community all around the world. This is the public health insight podcast. 

[00:00:24] Gordon: My name is Gordon, and I'm here with Ben, Sully, Wil, and three special guests will be introduced later. 

[00:00:30] Ben: Before we move on is important to note that the views expressed in this podcast are our own and do not represent any of the organizations we work for or affiliated with. 

[00:00:39] Gordon: On Monday, May 25th, 2020 George Floyd, an African-American man in his forties was killed while in police custody in Minneapolis, Minnesota. These scenarios have become all too familiar with numerous generations of black families being able to share firsthand stories similar to this one. In fact, only a few months earlier, in February,[00:01:00] Ahmaud Arbery an unarmed twenty five year-old man was viciously gunned down in the streets a scene that resemble that chase of an escaped slave.

[00:01:09] This has sparked outrage across the country and in other cities across the world for centuries, the black community has experienced systemic racism and discrimination, particularly the hands of whites who have been in a historical position of power still to this day. Black men disproportionately experienced negative outcomes when interacting with police, but we wanted to highlight that black women are also overrepresented in police violence.

[00:01:34] They're also mothers, sisters, aunts, partners, and friends of these male victims to discuss this complex issue, we've invited three special guests. 

[00:01:45] Linda is a public health professional based in Calgary, Alberta with experience in patient advocacy, health promotion and suicide prevention. She's passionate about working towards health equity, particularly in racialized communities through addressing systemic [00:02:00] barriers and challenging accepted norms.

[00:02:02] Rose Marcellin is a senior public health analyst working in emergency preparedness and response. She's also the founder of focused health collective, an LLC and initiative for people of color that aims to re-examine the ways in which we engage with and understand public health. 

[00:02:19] So Natalie Golden Walker is a registered pharmacy technician. Who's passionate about issues of homelessness and mental health care access for vulnerable people. She's also my dear wife. So welcome to the discussion, everyone. 

[00:02:33] Rose: Thanks for having us. 

[00:02:35] Linda: I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:41] TeNatalie : Hi (proceeded by laughter) . 

[00:02:42] Gordon: She's like I have to listen to this guy all the time or whatever.

[00:02:47] When we hear the names, George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, Ahmaud Arbery, Trayvon Martin, and Korey Wise, and the rest of the central park five who were wrongfully convicted and so on. And so on [00:03:00] countless others, we can all empathize with them first as human beings, but we have to discuss what racism is. So if you would like to share an experience or maybe even a definition of what does the word racism mean to you and we can start with rose and go around and if you don't feel like answering right away you can pass. 

[00:03:21] Rose: Yeah, no pressure. I just immediately think of my first encounter with racism. Growing up, I'm from Haiti where the majority of the population is black and didn't really encounter any race issues until I moved to the states.

[00:03:37] But in particular, I remember being in middle school. So about 12 years old and doing a project with a church group and we had to go into rural Tennessee. We're putting together a vacation Bible school, summer camp type thing and we went to, door to invite families over to send their kids to VBS with [00:04:00] us.

[00:04:00] And that was the first time, I opened somebody opened the door and they were like, oh, what are these N's (reference to the N-word) doing here? And I'll never forget that moment because I've never been called that. I didn't like, of course you knew you were different here in the states where there's like people, there's white people, there's all kinds of people.

[00:04:20] But that was the first time I realized that people judged me because of how I looked. So when I think of racism, that memory usually comes to the forefront for me. 

[00:04:34] Gordon: So yeah, there's elements there of just feeling uncomfortable in a place or at a certain time feeling that people are out to emphasize some differences that don't have anything to do with your character and so forth.

[00:04:48] Rose: Absolutely. 

[00:04:50] Gordon: Yeah, I'll go next. I've experienced racism that's know several points in my life. I think it's interesting that you pointed to being originally from Haiti because [00:05:00] I am originally from Jamaica and when you're in a majority, Black country, so to speak, you don't experience that same type of racism where a country is overwhelmingly white, for example.

[00:05:12] So I think the Caribbean black experience. It's different from other black experiences with racism. So for my, in my instance, it was similar. I didn't experience anything until I move to Canada and I've, people spat at me. I've had People discriminate against me for wearing a hoodie, are you here to Rob a store?

[00:05:33] So I've and then everyone gets those little microaggressions. Where are you from? Where are you really from? It's you want me to say Africa, if you already knew that, then you didn't need to ask me where I'm from. So that's just in a nutshell, that's my experience. 

[00:05:50] Linda: For me when I think about racism, it's important to emphasize it's not always that Intentionally violent type of encounter. [00:06:00] And now I was born in Canada. My parents immigrated here. And so I've never known what it's like to be in an environment where you, are not different or where you are the majority. And so like thinking back to my first encounter of racism, it wasn't violent, it wasn't somebody intentionally trying to harm me, but the impact was still harmed. And I remember like I was six or seven maybe. And and we were in a grocery store and it wasn't an area where they did not have a lot of diversity. It was explained to me after the encounter that actually we were the only black people in that area.

[00:06:42] And we were just there for a visit. And I remember we were in the grocery store and a little girl. Started screaming. She said, look, mommy, look, there's a lot of kids, there's black kids. And she was pointing at us and I just remember feeling shame. Like my face felt so worn and I remember thinking I'm [00:07:00] different and it's a bad thing, but someone observing and been like, oh, she's just a kid. She didn't mean anything. And I think in the general population, it's hard to conceive of that action as harm or as racism. So it's important to highlight. Yeah. We also want you to talk about the impact and it did cause harm. 

[00:07:23] Wil: I'm going to start with kind of my understanding and just my I'll give a couple of definitions of when I think of the terms, racism, prejudice, and discrimination, because think there, these three terms are very closely related. They build upon one another. 

[00:07:40] So when I hear racism I understand it as a belief that an individual's race is the primary determining factor of individuals, capacities and capabilities, and that the belief of racism is that people think racial differences are used to distinguish whether someone is [00:08:00] superior or inferior to another person.

[00:08:02] For me, prejudice is a preconceived notion or opinion that is not based on reason. That is just purely based on God knows whatever source that information. 

[00:08:14] And lastly discrimination. I understand it as the unjust treatment of people on the grounds of any kinds of differences. So this can be age, sex, gender, race, et cetera, et cetera. And so when I think of these three terms, racism to me is the way of thinking and the belief that an individual holds, whereas prejudice and discrimination I tend to classify them as the actions that stem from racism. And I would like to share, my personal experience with this topic.

[00:08:49] And I think it's pretty timely given right now because now there's still the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and this kind of happened [00:09:00] this past February. And honestly, I think when I think back to all their racist moments and racist, racist encounters that I've had in my life, this for some reason stands out because I would say it's one of the few times where I've felt genuine anger and also disgust in, myself and also just something that I cannot control. So what happened was I was going from Toronto, Canada back to Ottawa, Canada after visiting some family and friends, and this was near the beginning of when, WHO had announced COVID- 19 as a public health event of international concern and so I was here sitting on the train by the window seat with an open aisle beside me.

[00:09:48] And I remember. Clearly that a gentleman came in and was about to sit down and, it was a, wasn't a pretty, it wasn't a super full train on that time. But anyways, he called [00:10:00] over one of the workers and he was like, Hey excuse me. I was wondering if I can get an, a change. And then I started looking at him and the worker was like, oh, serve, like what's wrong?

[00:10:09] Is something, is this the wrong seat? And he was like, and no joke. His exact words were, oh, with the whole current Corona virus thing going on, you never want to be too careful. And he's, and he like had a little like nervous, little chuckle kind of thing. I just looked at him and I was like, buddy, you realize that just because you're sitting beside a Chinese person doesn't mean that you're going to get coronavirus.

[00:10:34] And he, instantly he came, tried to defend himself. Oh yeah. It's a no it's because I'm sick. I don't want to get you sick. And honestly, you and it's, I think it's just at that moment, I've never felt so uncomfortable because I mean being a visible minority, I'm sure we've all had the thoughts and just that feeling that people in our talking about us behind our backs, [00:11:00] talking about us of whether it's our cultural practices or just even the way we talk. But having someone say that to your face and just such a public space I was both embarrassed, but also angry and just so many emotions flying at me at the same time. 

[00:11:18] Gordon: Yeah. That's I think if you know me at all, I don't like definitions. I think academics, try to find different words for things that don't have any meaningful differences in my opinion. But in this case, it is an important distinction because when you call someone a racist, for example, right?

[00:11:35] If you are a racist and this is my belief of what the word means, racist doesn't mean that you actively participated in any act. To deliberately hurt someone. Racist can mean you can sit up in your house, have beliefs about certain groups of people, and then you don't act on any of those beliefs. So people think a racist is someone who's who didn't hire you for a job because you're black [00:12:00] or Asian or or any other ethnic minority, that's a form of discrimination, racism.

[00:12:06] Any perception of, or idea you've had in your head about someone being different or inferior because of the color of their skin or whatnot. That is a thought of racism. So I think it's important to make that distinction because the word racist or racism is being thrown around out there as if, if you've had a racist thought you're in irredeemable person and you're, there's no hope for you in life.

[00:12:29] And I think. I'm really cautious about the attack on people who aren't ethnic minorities now, because they have to be held accountable for things they've done, but we can't simply throw people in jail because all of us have learned the history books were written by the dominant race at the time.

[00:12:50] So these beliefs are taught. So we have to understand that part of the system, at least. 

[00:12:56] Ben: So Gordon, you raised a good point in the sense that racism [00:13:00] and discrimination is all taught. And I wanted to share that, it's very much institutionalized racism from white people, but also from my experience that institutionalized racism is also evident within Asian cultures.

[00:13:13] So for example, I'm south asian and a lot of the racism that I've seen and experienced has been on your color of your skin. So for example, there'll be like, oh, you are of darker skin. Why are you so dark? You have to be light-skinned. You have to bring yourself to this white culture or vision of beauty. And there's a lot of microaggressions within my culture and the sense of even the media that they produce, where you'll have like those Bollywood movies are those dance numbers. And if you look at it, the two main of brown people are extremely light-skinned through makeups and special effects. And if you get the backup dancers, they're all white people. There is no multiculturalism going on. It doesn't make any sense to me. So it's unfortunate that it's [00:14:00] not just these institutions created by white people, but it's also inside our own ethnic minorities that we have to have these difficult conversations with ourselves and acknowledge: hey, we're not as great as we think we are and there's a lot of work to be done here. 

[00:14:13] That's a good point, Ben, because in Jamaica, there's something that people do call bleaching and bleaching is chemical. And what it is people put chemicals on their skin.

[00:14:22] So people I can speak for people, black Jamaicans put chemicals on her skin to have an appearance of being lighter because it is perceived across the world that being lighter makes you more desirable or better. So even within these cultures, Ben, that you're mentioning that it's almost like a brainwashing hop in that because you're this color you are inferior .

[00:14:45] So this message is even resonating with the people that are being oppressed. 

[00:14:50] TeNatalie : I think those are great points that a fan and Gordon you've highlighted and it shows that. It's not necessarily somebody [00:15:00] saying, I'm choosing right now to be racist. And I think when someone hears the word racist, it's like an attack on their morals or on your character.

[00:15:09] And I personally think if we could move away from that and move into a space where we're like, actually everybody is racist. Like we've all been, we're all part of a system that perpetuates this idea that darker is inferior. And I'm part of that too. I have internalized anti-blackness too, because I'm a product of this system and I can admit that- not to glorify it, but to say it exists.

[00:15:41] So how do I also participate in being anti- racist? 

[00:15:46] All right. So I guess my next thing that I want to talk about, because we're dissecting. The whole issue of racism, discrimination, and prejudice. So the straw that broke the camel's back essentially [00:16:00] was the police brutality and killing of George Floyd.

[00:16:04] So does racism start and end with the police? And, you just jump in. If you have a comment on that. 

[00:16:11] Linda: So I think that it doesn't begin and end with police. I think can't remember who said it, but it is one of those things where it begins at home because police officers, it's not like they're, born and just have these thoughts.

[00:16:29] This is something that was taught to them that they grew up with. And then even within the workplace it's something that's shared and then everybody else acts on it as well. So the police officers that we're arresting George Floyd not all of them were white. So we have to remember that. And the police officers that were not white, it's not like they were willing to jump in and say something to prevent this from happening.

[00:16:58] However, I think [00:17:00] that it was a culture within the workplace. That there are certain ethnicities to target more than others. And I was reading that two of them. You're still new to the job. And they didn't even feel comfortable enough to step in and say something or do something. So I don't think that it's something that police officers are just born with that thought.

[00:17:27] I think that it's just a culture within the workplace. And I think that goes for many other jobs as well, even healthcare in Canada certain ethnicities are not treated the same as others. So I don't think it's just police. I think that the police right now is just the loudest thing that's happening, why people are paying attention and, anti- police brutality, but there's other professions that also have the same kind of mentality as to how [00:18:00] to treat certain people.

[00:18:01] Gordon: Yeah. So from what you're saying, racism is a learned attitude. And you can learn this at home, learn it in your neighborhood, learn your computer. And if the scales are tips, so that assert, if you're of a certain race, such as being white, puts you in a position to run these structures, these healthcare systems, criminal justice. When these people are running these systems, then you that's where you get the institutional racism. 

[00:18:31] Rose: Yeah I'll jump in and add to that. When I think about police and race and racism I think the police force the law enforcement as just one of many systems that have a history of holding up or supporting the majority population, I think is history.

[00:18:50] That's been passed down, secure. Certain people from attaining certain things. So I think it goes beyond just the police I think about the judicial court,[00:19:00] the court systems and what that looks like, or education history, at least here in the states where the system wasn't built for people of color to succeed.

[00:19:09] And though progress, I'm using air quotes here has been made that history is ingrained and policies and the way things are done, that it manifests itself, so violently to, what we saw in the last, last week. So I think it goes beyond just the police as an institution, but all of these different systems that, that guy's society and how we live.

[00:19:35] Gordon: And that's a, that's an important point because I don't think. The, on the outside, looking in, people don't understand that the block experience, so to speak. And I know there's a lot of diversity within the black community, and I acknowledge that is the case, but from the general black experience, some communities when black people see cops, it's not a safe and comforting sight, [00:20:00] it means that something wrong is about to happen as opposed to other neighborhoods may be more affluent.

[00:20:07] Maybe from a different ethnicity, such as white, they get a different emotion when they see police officers. And this is the cycle of mistrust and police brutality against regular civilians because when this stuff, we have cell phones and cameras now to document a lot of these things.

[00:20:26] And that's social media does have some good elements to it in this case, but they're in the, in previous history, these stuff weren't recorded. So you can imagine someone going to say, Hey, I was assaulted by a police officer and there's no evidence to support it and how that must make them feel.

[00:20:45] So I think we just have to realize too that again, we're, everyone's upset right now, but this is there's really been no change. Other than technology has advanced in such a way that regular people can [00:21:00] capture and give people a voice, 

[00:21:02] Ben: That's a good point about technology, but a notion or a nuance to that is that if you're just breaking out your phone and you're in a one-on-one confrontation, They could easily just destroy your phone and be like, oh, that never happened.

[00:21:14] Gordon: Oh, that is true. That is true. It just, that, that opportunity wasn't there. When I talked to people in my family who've lived here close friends and their experience with the police, it's almost the secret family recipe that no one knows about. It's no one knew about these experiences.

[00:21:31] So at least, having the ability, or many, several people recording it. So it gave, there was a lot of opportunity to ensure that this situation was going to be known by the general public. You're not going to be able to, you're not going to be in that position every time, but just to know that people are looking out and seeing.

[00:21:54] If there was trust between police and the community in general, I don't think anyone will be pulling out their phone when police [00:22:00] were interacting with people. So it just it's because there's like, whenever a police has a black man in custody, something's going to go down.

[00:22:08] So I'm going to pull out my phone. So that's literally what it comes down to. 

[00:22:11] Wil: I just wanted to say that the point that Gordon talked about with the idea of the filming, I think it's always, for me, what I got from that point is that, especially with the topic of police brutality, it's not like it's a brand new issue.

[00:22:27] It's just the fact that with technology now, people are able to film it. People are able to record it and there's a, it's actually available on record. And I think that's just, that just shows how previously before and you have this technological advancement were available. I'm sure the police were doing the same things.

[00:22:44] There's still that, that same level of inequalities just existing, but there just wasn't any evidence let's call it that. 

[00:22:52] Rose: Absolutely and if it makes you think about, how many other George there's been across time in [00:23:00] history who don't have the video evidence, to fight for them.

[00:23:03] That piece about technology being so important. Even just, I had a conversation with my brother and his thing is if he gets stopped by the police, he's pulling out his phone and just documenting that, that interaction. And it's almost a feeling of something you have to do, because you think about how quickly and how easily These incidents get covered up.

[00:23:27] We recently had something happened a couple of days ago. Here in the states where during one of the protests, not here in DC, I don't believe, but there were a line of police officers or guards, or I'm not sure they were national guard or whoever. But an older white guy walked up to them and he was pushed and he fell to the ground was started bleeding from his ear.

[00:23:50] But the official report said that he tripped and fell. And if not for his cell phone footage, we wouldn't have known what really happened. So if you think [00:24:00] about, one instance like that how many more are there? That we don't know, whereas it might be holding an accidental death or accidental injury or something, but we don't know.

[00:24:12] Gordon: So yeah, on one, on the same spectrum, we have a concept called white privilege. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because, and there's so many things like I can't even follow the news to know, what happened today, guess what happened today? And it's a bit overwhelming to be honest with you.

[00:24:31] So I rightfully or wrongfully, I have to tune out for my own mental health. But it feels like yesterday, there was a situation with this white woman, Amy Cooper, who called the police on an African-American man who was telling her to leash your dog. And this my subjective opinion, it appeared that she was trying to communicate to the nine 11 dispatcher that in some way she [00:25:00] was being in an imminent danger of being threatened by this man.

[00:25:03] And. I have this conversation with my friends. I think the intent here was for just to teach this guy a lesson, don't mess with white people because the police are gonna come and they're going to hurt you 

[00:25:15] Rose: When I saw the video. I agree with you on that. I think also what struck me was a sense of awareness where I immediately thought, oh, she knows exactly what she's doing.

[00:25:27] This isn't a moment of fear or I'm just going to say something like, no, this is calculated. And in my opinion, she understood the power of a white woman's words against a black man. And so that's what made the video even more vial to me. When you think about American history in itself and the words of a white woman.

[00:25:53] That privilege that comes with being a white woman in America it exists. And then she, and she used [00:26:00] that as a weapon. Would that phone call? This is so disgusting for me when I think about it and just hearing the inflection in her voice and how that changed.

[00:26:09] Ultimately she knew there was a leash law, right? So to me it's almost calculated in that. And that, regardless of which, which makes it worse. 

[00:26:20] What about 

[00:26:21] Linda: the aftermath when she was doing interviews and different networks and saying that now her life is ruined. No, she can't move forward.

[00:26:34] It's I still don't think that it has said in with her, that her actions could have been worse for somebody else. Can you imagine if this gentleman wasn't recording? What was happening, what was being said, and the police had showed up what would have been the end of that story? So I don't even think that she feels bad or recognizes that what she did was wrong because [00:27:00] now she's on TV saying woe was me?

[00:27:02] Gordon: You know what that reminds me, I'm sorry to get into the world of sports. Drew Brees is a quarterback for the New Orleans saints and so he was essentially asked his thoughts on protesting during if when the NFL does come back. Sorry. If I'm paraphrasing, when NFL does come back. How would he feel if African-American athletes or their teammates protests.

[00:27:28] During the national Anthem, and then you all knew, you all know what he said about, in my opinion, it's a disrespect to the flag, blah, blah, blah. And there's not a lot of connection here, but the point I'm trying to make is there's this element of selfishness here and entitlement that prevents you from seeing what's right in front of you.

[00:27:47] And I think that's what the commonalities are in the situation, even though she was reprimanded she's okay. What about me? And that, we're not talking about, you were talking about how can you look at this guy who has a,[00:28:00] imagine like a guy with his knee in your neck, on the pavement, and then you want to talk about you and you want to talk about your grandfather's fighting for the flag and blah, blah, blah, when there was still segregation and all that stuff.

[00:28:13] So it just shows a lack of awareness. Intentionally I call this willful ignorance and this self level of selfishness. I know Will's been dying to talk about.

[00:28:28] Wil: Yeah. So when I first heard that comment that he made about how, it's disrespecting the flag and all that stuff. It's exactly what Gordon said. I think the key word there is entitlement, right? It's he doesn't see it as individuals fighting for their rights and their freedoms and if you know the flag, I'm assuming it's supposed to represent, the values there, rights, freedom liberty, all that stuff that I'm not sure exactly what the U.S uses, but anyway, it's like those key tenants that the country was [00:29:00] built on, if those tenants are so important to you and saying that, oh, don't be disrespecting those the flag don't be disrespecting what the country is built on. You're literally being like the hypocrite because these people here are fighting for even the possibility to have that freedom, and I've been seeing articles, writings where it's just saying he completely missed the mark on that one because he just seems to not understand why the people are actually protesting.

[00:29:27] And like why these athletes like, like Kaepernick, were dropping on the news. It's literally to stop and to actually just raise awareness and just for, to show people that this is actually going on and that there needs to be change. 

[00:29:42] Gordon: It's almost like he was saying okay, america has been good to me, so I really don't have a problem, so I'm not sure what the big deal is. That's how, when you read between the lines, that's how you interpret it. But then for you not to be aware, you're a military family and [00:30:00] historian, blah, blah, blah. You're the P- the black people that fought beside your grandparents in the army and not really beside cause it was potentially segregated at the time. Yeah. They came home to a different kind of welcome. And you're saying you were okay with that because your family lived in prospered and that there's just a blatant disregard for the plight of black people and other ethnic minorities. 

[00:30:26] Narrator: The purpose of having these conversations is to raise awareness of the current struggles of visible minorities with an emphasis on the black community, in terms of police brutally and systemic racism in the United States, but also all around the world. We've discussed some of the dangers of social media in our previous episodes, but it can also be used for good. To record important moments in history that have been erased in previous centuries. The old saying goes, seeing is believing, and this has given birth to numerous protests around the world.

[00:30:56] This has been part one of the state of the union round table series [00:31:00] "Racism, the black experience and the perpetual fight for equality". Stay tuned for part two in this two part series where we'll continue our discussion about the movement and what we can do to make anti-racism the status. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next week.

[00:31:16] Remember public health is a field of inquiry and an arena for action to improve lives. One population at a time. This has been the Public Health Insight podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, please drop us a and follow us on Spotify, apple podcast, Google podcast, or your podcast platform of choice.

[00:31:34] You can also send us your question, comments, and suggestions for discussion topics at the publichealthinsight@gmail.Com. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you in the next step.