Education as a social determinant of health has the power to improve health outcomes for communities across the world, but what happens when access continues to be an issue for some neighbourhoods and populations? Nicole Vick, Adjunct Professor, TEDx Speaker and Amazon Best Selling Author of Pushing Through: Finding The Light in Every Lesson, remains with the Public Health Insight Podcast to shift our discussion to focus on the disparities in access to education, the barrier of social exclusion and institutional racism in our academic institutions, and how these factors interact to impact the health of already marginalized communities.
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Partnership with the Global Health Students and Young Professionals Summit
The Canadian Global Health Students & Young Professionals Summit (GHSYPS) aims to give space to students and young professionals (SYPs) involved or interested in the global health field. This is the forum for global health SYPs to connect, network, engage, and be inspired. Learn more about GHSYPS by visiting: https://ghsyps.ca/.
References for Our Discussion
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Education as a social determinant of health has the power to improve health outcomes for communities across the world, but what happens when access continues to be an issue for some neighbourhoods and populations? Nicole Vick, Adjunct Professor, TEDx Speaker and Amazon Best Selling Author of Pushing Through: Finding The Light in Every Lesson, remains with the Public Health Insight Podcast to shift our discussion to focus on the disparities in access to education, the barrier of social exclusion and institutional racism in our academic institutions, and how these factors interact to impact the health of already marginalized communities.
Share Your Thoughts With Us!
Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, and Facebook. We would love it if you shared your thoughts by commenting on our posts, sending us a direct message through social media, or by emailing us at ThePublicHealthInsight@gmail.com. Until then, we’ll see you in the next one.
Partnership with the Global Health Students and Young Professionals Summit
The Canadian Global Health Students & Young Professionals Summit (GHSYPS) aims to give space to students and young professionals (SYPs) involved or interested in the global health field. This is the forum for global health SYPs to connect, network, engage, and be inspired. Learn more about GHSYPS by visiting: https://ghsyps.ca/.
References for Our Discussion
Support Our Show
If you like our show, feel free to lend us some support by making a contribution on our Patreon page (link below) so we can continue creating the content that you enjoy as we expand the Public Health Insight Community.
Icon made by freepik from www.flaticon.com
[00:00:00] Wil: Dear listeners of the Public Health Insight podcast, my name is Wil, and before we begin this week's episode, we just wanted to share a new partnership between PHI and the Canadian Global Health Students and Young Professionals Summit. The seventh annual Global Health Student and Young Professionals Summit will be taking place virtually this October 17th. And this event will be totally free of charge for all participants. If you're interested in learning more about this event, please check out the link in this description below. Thank you so much and enjoy the episode.
[00:00:31] Sully: Public health is a population based field of science focused on preventing disease and promoting health. Every week, you will be engaging in interactive discussions and analyses of the latest public health issues affecting you and your communities all around the world. This is the Public Health Insight podcast.
[00:00:52] Ben: Before we move on its important to note that the views expressed in this podcast are our own and do not represent any of the organizations we work for or are affiliated with.
[00:01:00] Leshawn: [00:01:00] Education is a key social determinant of health and has the power to improve health outcomes for populations.
[00:01:07] In the previous episode, we spoke about health disparities that exist between populations, despite having similar levels of educational attainment with our guest, Nicole Vick, adjunct professor TEDx speaker, an Amazon bestselling author of Pushing Through Finding The Light In Every Lesson. She remains with us in this episode to examine the barriers to education, the prevalence of institutional racism in our academic institutions, social exclusion, and how these factors interact to impact the health of already marginalized communities. This is where we left off in our conversation.
[00:01:43] Gordon: So let's, uh, I just wanted to switch it up a bit and talk about, um, if we look at it from the other perspective, so we talk about how education influences, um, S you know, population's ability to achieve positive health, if you will. [00:02:00] What about barriers to education?
[00:02:03] So when we look at it the other way, what are some things that influences, um, someone's or population's ability to kind of achieve the education that they need? So, one of the examples I was seeing is, you know, maybe you live in an environment or a neighborhood where it's most heavily polluted and you know, your child has asthma and they have to miss a lot of, um, classes every day and they kind of fall behind in school because of the health problems caused, caused by their environment. And then that kind of affects their, the prospects in the education. So that's just one example I could come up with.
[00:02:38] Nicole: There are two things that come to mind for me that, um, seem to impact, uh, students in their communities that, you know, I'm familiar with.
[00:02:47] One of them is food, food access. If you're hungry, um, you are not paying attention. You can't. You're hungry. Um, and the other one is the exposure to violence and the trauma that occurs. [00:03:00] Um, and you know, there've been a couple of articles I had read over the years. I know, I remember one article. I wish I could remember the name of the program that was going on in one of the school districts around trying to help children work through the trauma.
[00:03:13] But in this particular article, the little boy his mother, had just had like a miscarriage or the baby died. The mom was pregnant and baby passed. And so mom was depressed. You know, she has going through her, her feelings and trying to deal with everything. And so the little boy was also having a hard time because he didn't quite understand what was going on.
[00:03:35] And mom, of course, you know, understandably so wasn't in the, in the right head space to be able to really work with her son's feelings because she's trying to process her own. And so the teacher was able to, figure out, hey, something's not right. He's acting differently. Maybe withdrawn. Maybe he was a little bit more hostile, combative, whatever it was.
[00:03:55] There was a program, art therapy program in this school that was able to help him [00:04:00] work through what was going on. And I think they were also able to support the mom and help her get the help that she needed. So, you know, the impact of trauma, violence, loss, um, grief can also really have a huge impact on children.
[00:04:16] We have seen studies that show that black children, especially black boys are often kind of filtered into special education classes because they're hostile. They're, they're angry, they're fighting. And it's like, what can we, can we look and see what's going on at home or in the neighborhood that really may be impacting this child's behavior. We're quick to kind of put them all, put them in a special ed class, kick them out, or expel them without really thinking about what's going on. So definitely violence and trauma and exposure to violence. Um, and then literally just not having food, um, and not being able to eat and know where your next meal is coming from can have huge impacts on a child's ability to learn.
[00:04:59] Gordon: [00:05:00] Right and I've seen, even though it was a while back, there were some, there was a community I'm sure there's several of them, all over in, including the United States where a principal kind of set up an initiative to get kids transported from their homes to the school, because he found out that his school was having a lot of absenteeism because there was a lot of violence and most of his kids had to walk to school.
[00:05:22] Right. So then you have parents having to make the decision between, you know, their child not getting assaulted or killed versus them getting an education. And obviously, you know, if you're a parent you're going to choose for your child to kind of be safe. So it just shows also that even just violence in communities, like you said, can serve as a barrier for children getting, um, you know, sustain education.
[00:05:48] So, yeah. So exactly. So we spoken extensively about how, you know, the importance between education and health and how, um, people who [00:06:00] are tend to be more educated, tend to have more positive outcomes. Although there are some exceptions, but, um, how easy is it to get an education. We've talked about violence being a barrier, um, but what about racial disparities specifically and how, how do those impact, um, the access to education and the quality of education someone receives while they're in that higher education?
[00:06:25] Nicole: I think one of the biggest things that we're talking about college now, undergrad, grad school. Right. Okay. Well, let's talk,
[00:06:32] Gordon: I heard you, I heard you, I heard you take a breath. Let's go.
[00:06:38] Nicole: So I, I I'll talk a little bit about my experience, which was so, so long ago, over 20 years ago. You know, it's okay. But I think it will actually make a lot of sense because I'm starting to see now a lot of colleges and universities sort of, kind of come to terms with their own historical past, and some of the things that they've done to, [00:07:00] you know, either on purpose or on accident, um, sort of create this difference in experience for black students and other students of color and everyone else. So I walked onto the campus at a university of Southern California as a freshman, um, back in 1996, um, I used to live probably five minutes away from campus.
[00:07:20] My entire life. I grew up around USC. We went grocery shop shopping across the street from USC. So USC was very close. But it was yet far away. It felt far, unattainable because I didn't see ever see anybody that looked like me on that campus. Um, as close as I was to it in my entire life, growing up. Somehow, you know, and I always say somehow, but no, the reality is I did work hard, um, apply like everybody else I got into school.
[00:07:46] Right. Yay. Um, but I was, I felt out of place. I felt unprepared. I felt like this school, it's not built for me. It is not intended for me. [00:08:00] I know the school is what was built in like 1880 or something like that. And, and yeah, that in back then, were they thinking about this black girl from south central walking on in this campus?
[00:08:09] No. So the school by its nature was not intended for someone like me. Add to that, I was pregnant. I was a teen mom, um, trying to navigate college. And so it was really hard. I, there were things like the black student union and things that, and they offer support. Um, but you walk through campus, the people, the names on the buildings and the photos and statues.
[00:08:34] No, they're not black folks now saying they shouldn't, they should be, but it just didn't feel like there was diversity.
[00:08:41] Gordon: And so you didn't identify with the place as much.
[00:08:44] Nicole: And so fast forward, 20 years later, starting to see the university. And again, I'm picking on USC because that's my experience and I'm sure others can speak to their experiences.
[00:08:54] 20 years later, fast forward, they're talking about, oh, we might want to rename this one particular [00:09:00] building because the, he was a former president of the university, but he was a supportive eugenics. What why, you know, why are we just now talking about this in 2020? It's almost like, uh, black lives matter. And all of the things that we have to do, we have to act up and act out, collectively in general, before people start to think about changing things.
[00:09:22] Oh, let's change the name of the Washington Redskins. How long have people been asking for that? Um, so it was just ironic again, in 2020, I've been out of school since the year 2000, um, and felt out of place back then. And now, oh, maybe we should think about how we treat our students of color and how to make sure that our campus is more diverse.
[00:09:45] You think so? Why now? Why not 20 years ago? 30 years ago? Um, and I think it really does, um, have an impact on the quality of the person's experience on campus, whether they [00:10:00] get out on time or at all, as far as graduating, um, I was told to take a leave of absence when I said I needed help. I was, I need help.
[00:10:08] I'm pregnant. What do I do? Well, maybe you should just, you know, take a leave of absence. Why are you trying to tell me, If I take a leave of absence, um, what is the likelihood that I'll come back and graduate? very low. Right. So why are you, why aren't you to helping me and helping me find resources, instead of just telling me to take a leave of absence,
[00:10:27] Gordon: I'm even thinking about the leave of absence when you, you know, if you take that, I'm guessing if you, maybe if you're you're out for a year or two, they might make you even redo a lot of the courses that you've already done.
[00:10:37] So it's not. Um, it's not very, it doesn't, um, put you in a position where you can come back and feel like you won't be excluded if, and I'm glad you kind of got into this as well, because you know, in the climate we're in now, everyone is talking about police brutality and police are bad and this and that.
[00:10:59] And I'm just like, [00:11:00] whoa, whoa, wait a minute. What about healthcare? What about education? What about all the other institutions? Yeah. That are set up, you know, with the cards stacked against, you know, people of racial and ethnic minorities. Um, it's not, and yes, on one hand we want to kind of call out these things, but it's all about, we're all about business and action right now.
[00:11:22] We're not about just simply shining a light in this, moving on. Like you said, you have to kind of put, put measures in place to make disadvantaged students in the context of higher education feel included.
[00:11:34] Nicole: Absolutely. And really quickly I can remember undergrad. I had one black professor. One.
[00:11:41] Linda: Can we talk about that really quickly too? Do you guys remember when you had your first, um, black or per person of color as a professor? Has it, have you ever had a professor that was black or that was racialized? Like, for me, it was in my last year of undergrad. [00:12:00] Like even through elementary did not have a single racialized person as a teacher. So, um, Nicole, you're saying for you that was in undergrad.
[00:12:07] Nicole: Yeah, so, in elementary school, all my teachers were black and the principal was black, everybody. And I went to a private school. A parochial parochial school is actually the more correct term. Junior high school, nice mixture, right, of black and others. Um, got to college, got to USC. I can remember one. And I ended up though.
[00:12:27] The wonderful thing is I actually still talk to her today. She actually lives down the street, found out. I said, Hey, I think that's Dr. Lewis. Wait a minute. Um, graduate school, zero. Um, so, you know, to your point, and then the really important to me that there is that diversity on, um, these, these college campuses.
[00:12:53] And I talked to my undergrad students and when we have our little section on education as a public health issue, I [00:13:00] also ask him that very same question. And there's always at least two or three that say, Nicole, you are my first black professor or black teacher period. And I'm like are you serious? Um, and that's why I feel like it's my responsibility to give the black girl magic version of public health leave in my work experience, which is amazing, but also my lived experience as a teen mom, for example, like, Hey, that happens in, in urban communities.
[00:13:27] Um, and I'm still here. She's here. She's 23 years old, but she was born eight weeks early. You know, and we could be talking about her as an infant mortality statistic, which would not be uncommon. Um, so I, you know, I try to make sure I leave all that in because again, a lot of our students don't have that perspective.
[00:13:47] They have not interacted with a black person at that extent ever. And so I'm like, okay, well, I'm glad I'm here to give that to you. Cause you're going to get it in the full experience from [00:14:00] me. But yeah, that's a huge question. And you will be amazed at the differences in response you get when you start to ask random people in your life, when did you have your first black teacher? You'll be amazed.
[00:14:10] Wil: Something that came to my mind, um, regarding race and higher education, not only, um, in terms of completion of higher education, but even just, um, I guess the process to even get into university or college or whatever, I feel like that just the whole application process, there's so much inequity in that system that, you know, sometimes you have universities, it's almost like, you know, it's, they're filling a quota of minorities and then, but then they don't do anything to change the actual system.
[00:14:44] They make it still that it's benefiting those who are, who are privileged, those who have, you know, Okay. Who, who do come from affluent families, who are able to meet those, oftentimes the extracurriculars, or even, you know, in high school or [00:15:00] earlier, you know, they've had the resources to get tutoring or whatever.
[00:15:03] It's I just find that obviously, you know, the quota it's it is, it's a good first step to recognize that there is a lack of visible minorities, but I find that it's, it is very much kind of a bank, a blanket and like a band-aid solution, you know, it's like, oh, here, you know, we're noticing that there aren't enough, um, you know, students of color.
[00:15:24] So we'll make it, we'll make sure we enroll X amount each year. But instead of doing that, it's really important to start considering, like what's, what is it about the system that, that, that made it so that you have to end up going to that solution? Like why, why aren't there just, um, you know, students of color who were able to get in through regular, regular channels, it's just, it's something that I kind of, you know, struggling. It also frustrates me. Um, I think, oftentimes even just in, no, not on me in applying to undergrad, but you see just the sit statistics and applying [00:16:00] to, um, the graduate school or professional school.
[00:16:03] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it even goes back to high school. There, there was a fight. There was an organization here called Community Coalition some years ago.
[00:16:11] They were fighting just for the school district. Like, hello, can you offer, um, there's a certain set of, um, classes. I forgot what the requirement is, but in high school that kind of gives you or preps you for, um, our state university system. And they're, I guess in south LA, some of the schools didn't even have that.
[00:16:29] So it's like, yeah, how can they even get to apply or, or figure out how to get in if they can't even get their, their current high school classes? Um, and so it is like, nah, we can't even get through, or even start to talk about the college acceptance part when we aren't even sending them up in there in the first place to even be able to meet the qualifications of the minimum requirements to even apply.
[00:16:49] Um, so it really is, I think there needs to be more conversation between some of the, you know, the, our school districts, especially in these high schools, um, and these universities and [00:17:00] colleges. And I think that would be really helpful, um, so that these students don't end up, um, being excited about potentially going to school and trying to apply and ultimately being let down, um, and, and not being able to kind of make it through.
[00:17:15] So I, you know, I don't know what the answer is. I just know for, even for me, by the time I got to USC, I applied to USC as a biomedical engineer. And to this day, I can't even tell you what a biomedical engineer is. I don't know. Right. Um, changed my major 5 trillion times. My parents didn't know what to tell me.
[00:17:34] They were just glad I got in. And I'm like, but I don't understand. So it's even trying to get in, once you get in, how do we make sure that they feel, um, are, are sort of have this safety net under them, you know, to make sure that they finish. It's a lot. It's a lot to think about and a lot to really try to fit, from both sides, the school districts, undergrad, not undergrad, um, [00:18:00] secondary and then the college it's really, really, hard.
[00:18:02] Leshawn: Yeah. I'm glad that you also mentioned even before higher education is even in question. So in Canada, specifically, Ontario, one of the provinces, they actually recently the Ontario government, um, ended the practice of streaming. Basically its kind of what you talked about, where high school students, even from grade nine, they choose whether to go into the academics stream or the applied stream. And based on that decision early on, it really dictates your prospects of maybe going to the university, colleges, or in the trades. So it really limits their, like we talked about early on it, that limits their opportunities and all the knowledge, and all the health outcomes that they could beat from, from pursuing education in that sense, especially if they're limited by some institutional policies.
[00:18:52] Nicole: Yeah. What if they changed their mind? You know, or they decide they don't want to do trades anymore. Like what, okay.
[00:18:58] Linda: Where I am in Alberta, we still have [00:19:00] streaming. And what makes it even more harmful, although maybe unintentional, who knows is that students who are in ESL or English as a second language, they're encouraged to take the applied stream. And if you look at who's predominantly in ESL programs, it's racialized people, people of color. And so it just creates that gap from the beginning. And you're not even aware it's happening. Let's say, you know, you don't have a parent or someone to advocate for you. To, you know, tell your school adviser, no, my child is going to take the, the academic stream regardless, if you feel they can't, you know? So it's like, how do you win, if you don't have someone to advocate?
[00:19:37] Wil: Yeah. By the time you get the, like applying for university, you realize, oh, you know, I, all my courses don't apply. I either got to go back and take retake the courses. And then you get, you get, I guess, lapped, no, further and further.
[00:19:51] Gordon: And that might actually have something to do with, you know, there was some stats about, um, Black and Latinx students, [00:20:00] um, being more likely to attend under funded by post-secondary institutions and these, um, I know it's different in Canada and in the States you have the two year colleges and the four-year colleges and, um, you know, uh, black and brown students overwhelmingly attend these, um, two year colleges, which tend to be receive less state funding and present less opportunities for, um, the students that attend them.
[00:20:27] And then, you know, white people, um, disproportionately attend the four year colleges, and as a result, um, those colleges get more funding and they get better opportunities when they leave school. So that, that perpetuates that disparity one, even when, as we've talked about, yes, education is great, but then the playing field still isn't level, once you get in it, and once you get out of it.
[00:20:48] Nicole: Right and then even if you bring into play the for-profit schools, which typically have higher tuition rates, You know, they charge more.
[00:20:55] Um, and then, you know, there was a big issue some years ago, some of these [00:21:00] for-profit schools, they got into a lot of trouble because it's like, you're charging a lot of money, but then these degrees are not useful. People are not able to get a job, um, or the jobs that they thought they were going to be able to get.
[00:21:11] They can't pay the loans back. So now you've got all these schools defaulting on. Like these loans were like horrible. The default rate was so bad, um, that there was a lot of crack down on how they were, um, providing this education. And to be perfectly honest, you know, I, I taught at a for-profit center, a couple of, for profit schools and they do provide an opportunity for students that can't quit to go back to school full time. You know, they have to work. They have to take classes online because they're still working. They're taking care of their families. So they provide a wonderful resource. Um, but again, you know, Hey, when I leave here, if I want to transfer to another school, or I want to get a graduate degree, is his degree recognized the people, does this thing hold any value.
[00:21:54] And a lot of people were finding out after the fact, like I didn't, nobody cares about [00:22:00] this diploma. I can't do anything with it. So I think that's the other side of, of again, that disproportionate or that disparity that we see because they charge a lot and people were seriously defaulting and getting saddled with a lot of debt.
[00:22:14] Gordon: Yeah. And I want to actually, we're going to go over to the recommendation side of things, uh, within, in the article and envisioning higher education as anti-racist. And one of the, um, I wasn't going to talk about it so soon, but it was, it's been on my mind since you mentioned, um, you know, the transition from high school to higher education.
[00:22:33] And one of the recommendations in the article was to eliminate standardized test scores in college admissions. And I would love to hear what you have to say about things like the SAT and stuff like that, cause we don't have that system here in Canada.
[00:22:47] Nicole: Oh, see, that's great. I might have to come up there with y'all.
[00:22:53] Um, I think it's, it's something worth examining. I don't know if we should have eliminated entirely. I'm not, I don't have enough information about that. [00:23:00] But what I will say is I do know that there are these some implicit bias, some, a little, little bit of racial issues going on with the SAT. Like, is it unbiased? I don't think it is.
[00:23:11] And so, um, that may be something worth thinking about eliminating it entirely. And again, just relying on students' grades, um, their extracurricular activities, their personal statement, um, in order to determine if they would be a good fit for school or not. Um, I think that's something to be said about maybe letting go of that, because we know those types of tests, even the test that they take in high school.
[00:23:33] There's another one I think in California. Um, you have to take some, I don't know if they abolished it or not. There was a test that students had to take and pass before they got their diploma. And that, that wasn't the case, you know, when I was in high school, you kind of just make sure you take your, your, your classes and get a certain GPA.
[00:23:51] And then that determines whether you graduate, but it was something about this test. So sometimes these tests we are finding are very, we think [00:24:00] they're unbiased and neutral and they're actually not. So if eliminating the SAT will, um, you know, making the playing field more level I'm for it, but I would definitely need to, you know, kind of understand the concepts and sort of the issue at hand a bit more.
[00:24:15] Uh, but I'm all for making sure folks have the same opportunities, um, despite sort of where they came from. Because, You know, we all don't get the same school. I learned that even at USC, I'm thinking I was number two in my high school class, got to USC and was sitting in class of genuinely confused. What are they talking about?
[00:24:37] My friend was like, you didn't learn this in high school. No.
[00:24:41] Gordon: Right. Yeah. And that's interesting because I think at the end of the day, what we're looking for with the SATs is that there's no racial or ethnic disparities in terms of the scores, right? Because that tells you that systematically or systemically something is wrong.
[00:24:56] If a certain group of people tend to do better or worse [00:25:00] at it. And with the SAT, I believe that the scores that you get determines kind of the quote unquote quality of school that you're able to attend. And then, and then if you're, if certain races do better or worse and they go to the quote-unquote poorer colleges that kind of perpetuates everything over again, where, you know, people of color on you're represented in kind of academia in terms of getting tenure ship with, um, universities and stuff like that, because they didn't go to the same prestigious schools like Harvard and whatnot.
[00:25:33] So it's just a whole cycle that, like you said, we, we probably have to re-examine it in a more holistic.
[00:25:39] Nicole: Absolutely. I think we're going to have to re-examine college, just in general, think about it. We're in a situation where the college campuses are closed or at least most of them are. I know mine is we will be teaching online.
[00:25:51] Um, USC will be online. Um, I know some other schools are thinking of different ways to do classes, but a lot of these schools are [00:26:00] going online now. So, you know, students are rightfully saying, Hey, why am I still paying full tuition? And I, I'm not getting the full of college experience. And, you know, we're talking to our teacher through a computer screen, we got to start really rethinking some things.
[00:26:13] Um, it's really interesting, really interesting time.
[00:26:16] Gordon: Yeah. And another, another recommendation. Um, we won't go too through all of them, but another one that is more on the, I guess, you know, from my opinion, maybe you could say it's more on the superficial side of action where funding mandatory anti racism workshops in universities and colleges.
[00:26:35] Um, I'm not sure about that specifically. Um, as a, as a, as a solution to kind of address the institutional racism and education, uh, primarily because we've kind of seen similar things done before, um, with, you know, discrimination, sexism, and I'm not sure if those have had an effect, um, just simply telling [00:27:00] people how to be.
[00:27:01] Um, you know, how to, I don't know if tolerance is a word because I don't want to go back to tolerance, um, grow in, in, uh, when I came to Canada in 2007, um, the kind of public discourse around, you know, race or just people that are different from quote unquote normal people was we have to have an environment to tolerate people.
[00:27:25] Wow. And right, right. That's kind of, that's how I heard it. And I'm not sure if. Right. And it's just be tolerant of others and it's just like, tolerant makes it sound like a chore. It makes it sound like, you know, they're not that, I mean, they're different than they're maybe not as good as you, but we just have to put up with them, you know?
[00:27:46] So I just, I, to me, when I, when I see something like workshops, it makes me think of, think of those things. I don't know what you think.
[00:27:54] Nicole: Yeah, I think workshops are important. You got to, you kind of have to put it out there, like, [00:28:00] Hey, this is what is happening. Um, this is what we will not accept. This is where we need to move forward. So I feel like in some, in some respect you kind of do have to educate or at least, you know, put that effort forward.
[00:28:14] But I think what ends up happening is, and this is not even just in, in higher education. What I think happens is we stop there. All we did, we did a training and we trained all the faculty and we trained all the students and yeah, yeah, we did this thing. We called this expert in and eight. They came and did a thing.
[00:28:31] And you need something to kind of check off on your annual report thing, but it's like now that everybody sort of has this basic level of understanding based on this training, now what, what does that, what does that mean, moving forward? How do we operationalize that? How do we institutionalize that, that learning?
[00:28:48] How do we make the change? I think the other part of training that becomes, uh, dangerous is for people like me, and actually when I wrote my book, the main catalyst for writing my book was I was sitting in a [00:29:00] training and they said that the slide came up and it said blacks fare worse in every single system in society, education, housing, dah, dah, dah.
[00:29:06] I had all these graphs and charts and stuff. I'm black. You talking about me, talk about my people, my neighbours. So what happened sometimes in those trainings, yes. It's wonderful to understand and learn, but what happens to the people that are in that space that are retraumatized by the information that's being shared?
[00:29:24] How are you protecting the faculty and the staff that are part of that, that group that we're trying to, you know, we'll look so let's all get together and hold hands. Wait. uh, No. So I think that's the other part of it too. How do we protect staff that may feel a certain way by what's being shared because ultimately it's going to be traumatizing to them to some degree.
[00:29:46] Gordon: Right. And even students in the classes.
[00:29:50] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:29:50] Gordon: Yeah. Cause that reminds me of in our MPH program, we had a, a course called, uh, indigenous health. And w we had, um, um, three, [00:30:00] three people that identified as indigenous in our class and being me being a minority myself, whenever we'd have kind of some of those, um, tough classes to learn about, you know, colonialism and some of the, you know, the acts of oppression by the Canadian government, I would always go to them after class and be like, how, how do you feel just kind of learning or listening over and over that basically your people are just screwed over. Like I've been in those classes as a black person, and it's kind of uncomfortable for me to sit there for you, to you as maybe even as a white educator to tell me how basically historically screwed over my people have been to hear that over and over without kind of that the, the positives behind it about, you know, not necessarily success stories, but maybe stories of resilience and, um, you know, making sure that the take home messages are clear that people, despite all of these historical injustices, um, [00:31:00] as a people, they were still able to overcome and be in the position they are now, and they're still fighting for, um, equity in society.
[00:31:07] So I think that context sometimes gets lost in the way. Um, you know, the whole retraumatizing thing, as you said for the educator and maybe the students who identify with that particular.
[00:31:19] Nicole: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:31:21] Gordon: So we'll, we'll leave it on this note. So I, and I guess everyone can put their 2 cents in before we conclude it.
[00:31:28] So, given everything we've talked about today, can we ever truly have these institutions of higher education that are completely free from systemic racism? You can go optimistic or pessimistic.
[00:31:43] Nicole: I am of the belief that our system, especially in the United States are built on racism, oppression. Um, we all know black people built this country.
[00:31:53] Um, literally the White House, all the, our structures, right. And if we really want to [00:32:00] change the structures and institutions, um, so that they are more equitable, um, I'm of the thought that we have to actually in some way, tear them down, um, because the foundation is rotten.
[00:32:11] Linda: I second that nomination.
[00:32:12] Nicole: If you know, as well as I do, if a house is on a messed up foundation, we can't paint the walls and put new curtains on it and say, oh, it's fine now, its not. So, um, I don't and please believe me I do not have an answer as to what it looks like to tear down a system.
[00:32:29] Gordon: I didn't expect you to, that's okay.
[00:32:31] Nicole: I'm just saying that I don't know what that
[00:32:33] Gordon: I would, I would nominate you for president right now. If you had the answer to those questions,
[00:32:39] Nicole: I don't know what that looks like, but I feel like it has to all come down and there are certain people in this country that don't want that to happen. Will fight it to the end. To maintain their level of status and power. Um, and so that's where the problem in the struggle is. So I think higher education, our institutions of higher learning are just as a part of that, just [00:33:00] like police, um, uh, law enforcement, housing, all of it. So yeah, somebody fix it.
[00:33:07] Gordon: Yeah. It goes, it goes back. I think what you're saying and what I've heard kind of the deeper thinkers say too, is, is the systems are working the way they were originally intended to work. Right. So it's not a matter of oh wow, you notice that, you know, people of color just seem to not do well in these systems. It's like, yeah. That's how they were set up to be.
[00:33:30] Right. So it's not that it was designed to be equitable. And we're realizing now that it's not, it's just, it was never designed to be equitable. So it goes to that thing that you were saying about, we have to dismantle and redesign something completely new to kind of not leave anybody out.
[00:33:48] Linda: I second, everything Nicole said, we definitely have to dismantle the way the systems are built right now, but I just want to touch on something, we didn't have time to explore. And I think it deserves its own [00:34:00] separate discussion, but especially the Canadian context, if we talk about educational disparities between indigenous and non-indigenous population, it's such a huge gap and it's so, it's because of the history of how, especially in Canada with residential schools as well.
[00:34:15] So I think that deserves its own air time, but
[00:34:18] Gordon: oh yeah, definitely, definitely
[00:34:19] Nicole: I agree. I agree. Um, that whole population has been just done so terribly wrong from the very beginning, especially in the United States, you know, Hey, we want your land. Okay. We're taking it from you. You got to go move. What? This was mine or even worse, oh yeah, here's some blankets and they got syphilis and small pocket, you know, whatever, whatever it was, they killed a whole bunch of folks. It's like, you know, they got done wrong back then. And then they continue to be done poorly treated poorly today. And help
[00:34:51] Gordon: people with that. Sorry to interrupt. And you have people with audacity to some of them go back to your,[00:35:00]
[00:35:01] someone didn't learn very well, right? Like
[00:35:06] Nicole: it's amazing. And, or get mad or they have their casinos. Cause here, you know, they, they are allowed to own casinos and I'm like, oh yeah, they should have all the casinos. All of them, everything, right? Like what are you talking about? So it's, it's, it's really disheartening and you're right.
[00:35:20] I think that deserves its own episode. Um, or cause it's so much, so many layers there. A lot of what we have in the United States today is on the backs of indigenous people,
[00:35:31] Gordon: the whole discussion about, you know, reparations versus reconciliation and that's something, and even in Canada, that's the public discourse in terms of, um, righting the wrongs with indigenous people is around reconciliation.
[00:35:45] But I know from, from me as an outsider, looking in on the United States, its about, Um, reparations and I think I did a lot of research into the differences and it's very, it's very interesting, kind of the little nuances between the two. Right. [00:36:00] And, um, but yes, I would love to talk to you about that a little bit more later.
[00:36:06] So, um, Nicole Vick, thank you for joining us to discuss this incredibly important topic with education, uh, racism, uh, and you know, in the, in the kind of, you know, system of social determinants of health. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about your new book.
[00:36:25] Nicole: Thank you. So my book is called Pushing Through: Finding the Light in Every Lesson.
[00:36:30] It is currently available on Amazon in a Kindle version right now. And then the paperback version comes out September 14th. And this book is about my life, and it has all these fabulous public health themes layered all throughout the book, the whole education conversation is there. Walking onto a campus feeling like I don't belong here and that struggle, um, the idea of something you just said about, Hey, is this system acting the way it [00:37:00] was designed to? And I think I literally wrote exactly what you said. Like, no, this is, this is it's working the way it's supposed to. So you might think it's something wrong with the system. No the system is working well, we have to dismantle it. So all of that is in the book. I talk about body positivity, my journey into that.
[00:37:16] I talk about relationships, the importance of sisterhood. Since I'm a woman, sisterhood people lifting you up in your professional life and in your personal life. So there's a lot of information there and I'm sure that anyone in any space in their life would find something, um, helpful in my book.
[00:37:35] Gordon: Awesome, and I think it kind of goes at it not to summarize your book cause I haven't had the chance to read it yet. I know there's something you've been saying a lot lately about um, correct me if I'm wrong, being in a space that wasn't designed for you is, am I getting that right? And I think a every time I see you post those videos, I go, wow. Like I I've, I've been in those situations where it's a psych, this wasn't made for me to be [00:38:00] here.
[00:38:00] And you kind of get that uncomfortable feeling and feeling excluded and stuff like that. So I, I'm excited to, to, you know, get a copy of your book and kind of learn more about your journey. And I'm sure I can probably identify with that identify with a few things in there. For those listening. Um, check out the book.
[00:38:20] Leshawn: Go get Nicole's book.
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